Interesting, but I don’t think your point about India is completely accurate - English is an official language in India and is arguably more of a shared language for Indians than any indigenous language (hence the massive controversies whenever attempts are made to impose Hindi beyond the north).
Well in your story the Israeli woman wasn’t asking the Russian to learn her language (Hebrew), which puts an interesting spin on it. Perhaps that’s what this is about - someone from a country whose language isn’t widely spoken assuming (wrongly) that people from other non-Anglophone countries would follow suit.
yes, that's right. From cultural angle, I think of India as a continent rather than a country, there is so much cultural diversity there. Yes, in such a country agreeing on English may be easier than Hindi, as the first is culturally neutral, like you observed. Still, only 10% Indians speak English. Social norms are equally important than government official norms, so we have to acknowledge English is far from adopted as lingua franca. That said, there is nothing wrong in speaking English in India if you can't speak the local language. But requesting your dialoguer to learn your language, while you aren't ready to learn his, is simply arrogant.
I think i see the point you're making, yet I cannot agree with the conclusions you drawn. Here's how I see it. I assume You don't know who Jiǎng Zhōutài was, yet you are well aware of Chang Kai Shek. Now after You googled it and You see my little trap, tell me is it a sign of Your ignorance or rather is it just a name so insignificant for Your life, and so rarely mentioned anywhere outside of China that it is perfectly natural for You to have no idea that both those names are of the same historical figure?
I will also tell You a little story. I work outside of my country. My superior (local) is working mostly with foreigners from various european countries, yet he refuses to use english with us, and is constantly communicating via text messages in the local language. Now let me ask You a question- am I ignorant by not attempting to learn another foreign language, or maybe my superior has too big ego and fails to understand that in a multi-lingual community, it is expected to at least make an attempt to communicate in a language most widely understood within that community?
Thank you, I like both points. On the first point: agreed that we cannot know everything about everyone. There are 260 countries in the world! Do you know the name of president of each of those countries? Of course not, even this is too much for an average person. So we have to accept certain level of ignorance.
But "managed ignorance" is different from "ignorance of one's own ignorance". The example of the former: "I respect I don't know much of Chinese history, and likewise, I accept the Chinese might not know too much about mine". A good starting point for dialogue. The example of the latter: "you guys should learn my language and then we can start talking".
Regarding the second point... well what can I say, except that yes, some people have big ego...
In general, I do not think that everyone needs to learn five languages. I personally like to do it, but this takes a lot of time. So many people would prefer to use that time to develop other skills, or simply play soccer with kids or drink wine, and that's okay. But the point is rather to remain aware of our own limitations. If I only know one language - English, but in the same I remain conscious that this limits my cultural horizons, and I remain open to what other cultures represent - I think that's okay.
This is a fantastic post and great discussion. I like to travel recurrently to the same places to have an opportunity to sink-in, at least just a little bit. The modern technology makes it easier than ever to participate in the local culture. When I was with kids at a camping in Italy a few years ago, there was a small play on one evening. With live auto-translate app, we were able to understand almost all of it
Everyone knows a lot about the U.S. And before that, everybody knew about the U.K. Cultural dominance is a powerful thing. People in the U.S. know very little about any place else. Cultural dominance is their burden also. What it makes me mostly, is just sad. There is so much to this world, and to be tied to any one cultural trap is a regretful waste of one's life. I do see the decline of U.S. popular culture from its pinnacle, these days. That is good for everyone. I don't have any illusions though, that another won't take its place. Thank you for writing this.
much appreciated, thank you. My European perspective on this - there is lot of goodness in the USA that many Europeans have no idea about. So, the arrogance works the opposite direction too. And the European travellers don't get to see it because they stay too short to get immersed. Indeed, if you just drive the highways to get to the national parks, you get the impression that McDonalds are all that there is. But some things should be obvious and aren't. If America wasn't there, Hitler would have overtaken Europe, and if he didn't, Stalin would. American constitution was a role model for the world, and America has been on the forefront of freedom of speech, human rights and democracy. Most innovations, most technologies and also most today's culture came from the USA. Altogether, it is worth another article... maybe I will write it one day. But, even a quick look on substack (most writers here are American) demonstrates that those values are still there.
I also just found this article, giving broader on perspective on the number I quote: 3% books in English are translations: https://translationpatterns.substack.com/p/3-percent-60-percent-the-singularity
Interesting, but I don’t think your point about India is completely accurate - English is an official language in India and is arguably more of a shared language for Indians than any indigenous language (hence the massive controversies whenever attempts are made to impose Hindi beyond the north).
Well in your story the Israeli woman wasn’t asking the Russian to learn her language (Hebrew), which puts an interesting spin on it. Perhaps that’s what this is about - someone from a country whose language isn’t widely spoken assuming (wrongly) that people from other non-Anglophone countries would follow suit.
yes, that's right. From cultural angle, I think of India as a continent rather than a country, there is so much cultural diversity there. Yes, in such a country agreeing on English may be easier than Hindi, as the first is culturally neutral, like you observed. Still, only 10% Indians speak English. Social norms are equally important than government official norms, so we have to acknowledge English is far from adopted as lingua franca. That said, there is nothing wrong in speaking English in India if you can't speak the local language. But requesting your dialoguer to learn your language, while you aren't ready to learn his, is simply arrogant.
Yes, what a big place--the world. And how shallow, so many countries from the bubble. Great post showing the wideness of our world.
I think i see the point you're making, yet I cannot agree with the conclusions you drawn. Here's how I see it. I assume You don't know who Jiǎng Zhōutài was, yet you are well aware of Chang Kai Shek. Now after You googled it and You see my little trap, tell me is it a sign of Your ignorance or rather is it just a name so insignificant for Your life, and so rarely mentioned anywhere outside of China that it is perfectly natural for You to have no idea that both those names are of the same historical figure?
I will also tell You a little story. I work outside of my country. My superior (local) is working mostly with foreigners from various european countries, yet he refuses to use english with us, and is constantly communicating via text messages in the local language. Now let me ask You a question- am I ignorant by not attempting to learn another foreign language, or maybe my superior has too big ego and fails to understand that in a multi-lingual community, it is expected to at least make an attempt to communicate in a language most widely understood within that community?
Thank you, I like both points. On the first point: agreed that we cannot know everything about everyone. There are 260 countries in the world! Do you know the name of president of each of those countries? Of course not, even this is too much for an average person. So we have to accept certain level of ignorance.
But "managed ignorance" is different from "ignorance of one's own ignorance". The example of the former: "I respect I don't know much of Chinese history, and likewise, I accept the Chinese might not know too much about mine". A good starting point for dialogue. The example of the latter: "you guys should learn my language and then we can start talking".
Regarding the second point... well what can I say, except that yes, some people have big ego...
In general, I do not think that everyone needs to learn five languages. I personally like to do it, but this takes a lot of time. So many people would prefer to use that time to develop other skills, or simply play soccer with kids or drink wine, and that's okay. But the point is rather to remain aware of our own limitations. If I only know one language - English, but in the same I remain conscious that this limits my cultural horizons, and I remain open to what other cultures represent - I think that's okay.
This is a fantastic post and great discussion. I like to travel recurrently to the same places to have an opportunity to sink-in, at least just a little bit. The modern technology makes it easier than ever to participate in the local culture. When I was with kids at a camping in Italy a few years ago, there was a small play on one evening. With live auto-translate app, we were able to understand almost all of it
Everyone knows a lot about the U.S. And before that, everybody knew about the U.K. Cultural dominance is a powerful thing. People in the U.S. know very little about any place else. Cultural dominance is their burden also. What it makes me mostly, is just sad. There is so much to this world, and to be tied to any one cultural trap is a regretful waste of one's life. I do see the decline of U.S. popular culture from its pinnacle, these days. That is good for everyone. I don't have any illusions though, that another won't take its place. Thank you for writing this.
much appreciated, thank you. My European perspective on this - there is lot of goodness in the USA that many Europeans have no idea about. So, the arrogance works the opposite direction too. And the European travellers don't get to see it because they stay too short to get immersed. Indeed, if you just drive the highways to get to the national parks, you get the impression that McDonalds are all that there is. But some things should be obvious and aren't. If America wasn't there, Hitler would have overtaken Europe, and if he didn't, Stalin would. American constitution was a role model for the world, and America has been on the forefront of freedom of speech, human rights and democracy. Most innovations, most technologies and also most today's culture came from the USA. Altogether, it is worth another article... maybe I will write it one day. But, even a quick look on substack (most writers here are American) demonstrates that those values are still there.